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Discussion: How Physically Involved Should Dating Partners Be?

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How physically (sexually) involved should dating/courting partners be? I know this is a very out-of-the-season question in this 21st century where the question has become whether to sleep with him on your first date or not or after how many months of dating should you move in to start living with him, where all other “wifely duties” follows.

Don’t look at me like one “emotional dead guy”, I’m in a relationship and sometimes craves for my boo’s body, but a fruit eaten before it gets ripe can really disturb your stomach or keep you bedridden for days. It might destroy your taste buds and thus prevent you forever enjoying the taste of another or even lead to death in the case of poisoning that is not checked early. ˚Ok° enough of all these parables. All I’m saying is, that it’s now a norm does not make it right.

I have had issues with the rate at which today’s marriages end before they even start. A statistics done 11 years back in the United State stated that 1 out of every 2 first marriages ends in a divorce, I am pretty sure that rate must have increased in this year 2018. Especially with movies like “I give it a year“, telling you to bail out once it’s not what you expected or wanted. My anger on that will be in another post. But all this is an indication that we are obviously doing something wrong.

Could it be our “pre-marital sexual involvement”? Kindly share your sincere opinion on this.

How far can/should you go with your boyfriend, what to you is “permissible” or “a no-go-area“.

Now the floor is open, let the discussion begin. (Feel free to post as anonymous 😉 )

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55 Comments

  1. ds is a vry sensitive topic o, b4 I met Christ, I do al dos stuffs, bt now m a new being till marriage, wit God’s help

    1. Hmmm, thanks Adefunke for sharing. So in your “don’t do all those stuffs”. Aii 🙂

  2. Yes, premarital sex is a major issue..1. when a guy is sexually fulfilled he’s no more committed and seeks for another lady.
    2. when sex is involved before marriage, the level of trust declines because a man in his mind thinks if you’re able to give in to have sex with me, you can accept to do that with someone else…

    1. Well stated Sam, thanks. Let us see if others agree

  3. they shouldn’t be physically involved for any reason….well except for the occasional kissing.

    1. Lol @occasional kissing. But can it really be occasional? Unpremeditated? Please respond

    2. Welllll, do you know what a non-christain had to say about kissing? He said if a christian who kisses b4 marriage, says his reason for not getting physically involved(caressing n sex) is bcos his body is God’s temple, then what about his mouth he uses to do the kissing? That, is the christian’s mouth not also his body?

  4. well, nothing goes beyond a hug for me… I’ll also advice that such hugs don’t graduate shaa.

    1. Hahaha…Nice, thanks Francis

  5. I will provide you with answers that I believe are founded in scripture…
    Please feel free to raise questions afterwards
    1. The bible speaks of marriage as established by God for the purposes of achieving God’s plan for Man’s dominion. The man was seen to be alone, single but alone and a help-meet was sought for him. We notice something very peculiar – Adam was not said to “love” his wife but from the text we see that he “recognises” her as the one to help him and be with him.
    Adam Names the Animals
    18Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” 19Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.…
    Relationships, dating and courting are precursors to marriage and given that marriage is an issue of longterm commitment then it is ciritcal that relationships, dating and courtship be designed to train the individuals involved in the DOCTRINE OF COMMITMENT.
    NOW, like the previous commenter stated, it is very likely that a guy once sexually involved will seek for greener pastures elsewhere. While I will not make any generalizations, I find that this is true for the majority of relationships. We date haphazardly without a single reference to our purpose on the earth or for eternity.
    Note that in the verse above – the helper was made to [HELP] Adam not just provide sexual relief for him
    The question is this: why should you be physically committed when you both are not committed to the same purpose? On what basis do you hope to build a home when you are not even aware of your God-given destinies but just hop from bed to bed?
    2. The bible speaks of a unison that occurs during premarital sex. A unison that is not just limited to the merger of the sex organ but rather transcends the physical and is decidedly spiritual. Paul speaks:
    Our Bodies are Members of Christ
    …15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.” 17But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. (1 Corinthians 6)
    Now picture this that every sexual tryst is not just a physical escapade but the enacting of spiritual contracts – covenants etched in blood.
    Funny thing is “when we mention -safe sex- especially for the un-married. Doesnt that indicate a very gross pre-meditation to sin??? loool
    3. The next point strikes me as revealing. I will start with the verse… Read it slowly….
    2 Corinthians 7:3-5
    The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
    READ IT SLOWLY….
    “For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does”
    Whoever you have sex with you yield/submit to… I will leave it at that…
    I could go on and on… but perhaps I will do a post on this.. seeing as I am in a writing mood….
    P.S If i yarned nonsense, abeg no vex… ahahaha

    1. You should really do a post on this…This is deep and well supported with scriptures. Thank you Damilare

  6. Well, I’m of the opinion that there should be no sexual involvement. It can bring up too many things you didn’t bargain for. Remember that there’s the issue of pregnancy to contend with and so many other issues. Besides, as Christians, we shouldn’t do anything that will soil the name of Christ and His church. Even the “occasional” kissing, otherwise categorised as foreplay, can lead to unexpected quarters. My take? Just leave it alone till marriage.

    1. You know, I read a book and the author said, “If you can Kiss to God’s glory, then go ahead”, I don’t know the possibility of that though, but “premarital sex to God’s glory, sounds like an oxymoron.

    2. I would have to ask tho’ Mr Lifegiva, do you consciously go to the toilet to God’s glory???

  7. How much control are you willing to give to a man you are still unsure of? A man who has not committed to you in the eyes of God, your parents and the world???
    Physically involved? – well, let Grace lead you.
    SPEND TIME DEFINING AND REFINING YOUR LIFE-PURPOSE..
    ALLOW THE SPIRIT DEFINE THE BOUNDARIES.
    IT IS THAT SIMPLE

  8. I really agree with the keep everything till after marriage. However, i really feel like sometimes a kiss might just strengthen the relationship if its not on a regular basis. NOTE: Do not try this at all times in dark places.

  9. I once had this kind of discussion on my blog too, and many people objected to kissing not to even talk of sex before marriage, as for sex before marriage i disagree, when the fruit is ripe then pluck and eat, the nutrients thereof will benefit you. However for the foreplay some people say if you cannot control yourselves do not go into kissing, if you can then why not, but my question is that is it wrong to kiss because our culture does not permit it (Nigerian culture, before we started watching “oyinbo films” and then we brought it into our culture and it has become a norm), or it could lead other steps after kissing? i feel this topic is more than just sex though, can we please start from the root… for those that have the knowledge kindly share…Thank you.. @ Tolu nyc work

  10. I researched and saw somethings that could help out here:
    Fornication is sexual sin. Fornication is any kind of sexual activity outside of marriage. Some people have tried to limit the definition of fornication to only one specific sexual act (intercourse), and say that you can participate in any other kind of sexual activity other than this one specific act, and you are not committing fornication. But that is not the way that the Bible uses the word fornication. Any kind of sexual activity or touching outside of marriage is fornication according to the Word of God.
    I Corinthians 7:1-2 says:
    “…It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.”- Pastor Matthew Norville, Sr.
    The Bible does not really tell if it is okay for Christians who are dating to kiss. Personally I don’t see any problems with kissing when you are dating someone you would like to marry. However, kissing could lead to some situations that could be embarrassing to Christians. Let me share with you some Biblical guidelines about dating.
    Let the relationship progress step by step.
    II Peter 1:6-7, TLB
    “Next, learn to put aside your own desires so that you will become patient and godly, gladly letting God have his way with you. This will make possible the next step, which is for you to enjoy other people and to like them, and finally you will grow to love them deeply.”
    What to avoid on dates.
    Romans 13:13, TLB
    “Be decent and true in everything you do so that all can approve your behavior. Don’t spend your time in wild parties and getting drunk or in adultery and lust, or fighting, or jealousy.”
    Dating should not include a sexual relationship.
    I Corinthians 6:13,18, TLB
    “But sexual sin is never right: our bodies were not made for that, but for the Lord. . .That is why I say to run from sex sin. No other sin affects the body as this one does. When you sin this sin it is against your own body.”
    Keep yourself pure.
    I John 3:3, TLB
    “And everyone who really believes this will try to stay pure because Christ is pure.”
    To keep from hurting ourselves, sexual desires and activities must be placed under Christ’s control.
    I Thessalonians 4:3-5, TLB
    “For God wants you to be holy and pure and to keep clear of all sexual sin so that each of you will marry in holiness and honor–not in lustful passion as the heathen do, in their ignorance of God and his ways.”—-Rob Chaffart
    But I say, can conscience be the judge over this? If you are condemned then you are not doing the right thing and if not, then you are right?

  11. I will love to be as simple as possible… I will address two set of individuals
    1. Unbelievers – it is not right for you to be kissing in your relationship because you lack the ability to listen to the voice of the Spirit speaking from experience when I was a sinner each time I was with my partner I had uncontrollable urge to go more than kissing probably sex… It is extremely hard to control yourself as an unbeliever I had no guidance on how to act in the relationship what to do and what not to do
    2. Believers – we all know as believers we enjoy too many benefits under Grace kissing is not wrong but the case is different that’s if you and your partner always listen to God The Spirit… You all are under the control of the HolySpirit who is our ” Guidian ” who tells us things to come and all so kissing has to be seen from different points if view
    My point
    I will not advice an unbeliever to kiss
    I will not encourage a believer who doesn’t listen to the HolySpirit to kiss also
    Whatever you do just ask the HolySpirit if it’s right love you guys I believe every question is best answered by the Spirit of God…
    Love the topics here
    Plus go like my page on fb https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingdom-Living/1473887709489876?skip_nax_wizard=true

    1. Kissing involves the body (the mouth). Our body remains God’s temple. …”He who thinks he stands should take head lest he falls.”

    2. JACINTA I appreciate your comment and the spiritual backing… But what is right in man might be wrong in God’s eyes and what is wrong in man might be right in God’s eyes
      Genesis 21:9-13
      And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son:for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. And the thing was very grievous in Abraham’s sight because of his son.
      And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
      In he eyes of Abraham it was wrong but we can say it was right in God’s eyes or will God ask Abraham to do wrong?
      I wrote this post with little understanding now I have little more added to me about what is wrong and right which is
      I asked the HolySpirit and my Spirit picked this until a man be married the bond between the flesh(physical) of him and the lady shoud not come into existence I’m sorry if I have said contrary this is the Gospel truth…
      Remain blessed

    3. I laughed hard reading this particular comment. Unmarried believers shouldn’t kiss but unmarried believers can kiss because they enjoy God’s grace? Looool. People will always back up their deeds and misdeeds with scriptures. Lol!

      1. Lmao… I tot I was alone on that one…. Lord..

  12. Premarital sex is bad don’t do it simple please begging God will forgive definitely but please it has so many things attached
    E.G a young girl that hr parents spent all they had to send her to school gets pregnant she will have to leave school God forgives her but she has to keep the baby so she dropped out n frustration hunger begins then she’ll say God why…
    Let’s see it from a lay man’s point
    Ah if the consequences is bigger than the enjoyment ah mi o le gba I’m Igbo sha
    Too many consequence attached not just earthly
    ones what if the trumpet sounds on that day…? Ki lo fe se?
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingdom-Living/1473887709489876?skip_nax_wizard=true

  13. i lyk everyone’s comments here bt jus like sum1 said, sexual relations does not involve only sex bt othr things like kissing, fondling, etc bt many of us wud say it is not wrong, d truth is most of us christians know dat sex is wrong bt 95% of those xtians do not see anything wrong in d rest, av we forgotten dt it’s those othr things dat lead to sex, n did I hear sum1 say ”occassional” or once in a whyl, sorry bt one thing u shud knw is dt once u’v startd, u no longer see whats wrong in it n u crave for mor of it n one thing is it is not possible for two ppl to be kissin n their hands wud be still, especially d guy, his hands wud move, n wen it moves leads to fondling, b4 u knw it, u myt end up sucking n doin all sort of things you neva plan for, a yoruba adage says ”a kii fi oun ti a o ni je runmu” i.e. U shouldnt smell or dat which u wouldnt want to it, so if u’re not ready for sex now, why involve urself in acts dat lead to it, did i hear u say self control, my dear, thr is nothing like self control in kissin, if u wud exhibit trait of self control, y not control urself from kissin nw rather than tell me dat u cn control urselves whyl kissin, av u eva taken tym out to ask urself dt what do u think is God’s opinion abt all these, or av u forgotten d passage dt says ”whoeva want to be my disciple must deny himself, take up his cross n follow me” i want us to lay emphasis on denyin oneself, it’s wat ur self desire n flesh profiteth nothing……and am sure dt if any of u see ur youth pastor or an unmarried spiritual brothr that u soo mch look up to, if u see some1 lyk dat kissin, u wuldnt think dat thr is no big deal in it, infact dats wen we will see d bigdeal in it, wat am i tryin to say, anything dat wud seem questionable in anyway, it’s better u totally avoid such……bt i dont see any wrong in simple hug(not d type dat d guy wud be carressin d sista’s butts anywayz lolzz), holdin of hands, n probably a peck….let’s not forget dat guys av crazy hormones dat go haywire at d slightest touch n let’s rememba dis passage dt says, ”never give d devil a foothold” cos if u giv him dat, he’ll tak mor thn jus wat u’v given…God help us all

  14. Nah Mehn, wats worth it is worth waiting 4. Physical intimacy shud b limited 2 holding hands n praying a prayer of agreement :D. Bt seriously its best dat way.

    1. This comment really got me laughing. Prayer of agreement!it is well

  15. God’s standard never change irrespective of our individual stance on the point of premarital Sex.
    In a relationship in which both parties have long term commitments; sex shouldn’t be what can’t be waited for. Impatience for sex is an indicator of unpreparedness for marriage which is a life long commitment.
    Any excuse made to justify one’s wrong action doesn’t make it right. Sex in God’s plan is intended for married couples and not couples to be. Christianity involves surrendering our totality to Christ Lordship which doesn’t exclude sexual chastity.

  16. I think pre-marital sex for a Bible-believing christian is not a topic for discussion. IT IS CLEARLY STATED IN THE BIBLE that it is a no no.All i know is God who stated it there has His reasons, and it would be wiser to obey instead of finding out why He(God) said so. I think the real issues for most christians are the other ”activities” like kissing. And as other posts have stated, just let the Holy-Spirit sincerely lead u. The Holy-Spirit teaches us all things.I have been taught by Him in this regard(relationship boundaries) and i knew i was not mistaken;i had my inner peace. I honestly won’t say only hugs are allowed,just let God lead u personally.

  17. Everything here seems like long, I mean, very long stories. Flee away from all appearances of evil, not just evil it self, but anything that looks like it. Trust me, kissing looks very much like it let alone the rest.

    1. Very correct. Kissing is described as love-making. It is sex. N premarital sex is sin

  18. I believe we all know premarital sex is sin so i will focus on other things like kissing, touching and even conversation:
    While trying to decide whether or not kissing outside of marriage is actually fornication, a friend of mine asked me ‘if u catch ur partner kissing another woman (in marriage) would u count it as adultery?’ I came to a conclusion that sexual activity (whether foreplay or actual intercourse) is fornication. Any activity that stimulates sexual feelings should be avoided like a plague… whether physical activity or even verbal activity (sexual talk) should be watched… let’s keep our minds as well as our bodies pure b4 God…
    I’ve considered things like: while kissing, can u really claim the thoughts in ur head are pure? While kissing, do ur hands stay still or do they ‘roam?’ If some1 u led to Christ walks in on u kissing, would u embarrassed? I think after considering all these, I’ve decided 2 ‘seal’ my lips (so help me God)…

    1. Nice one jare, I wouldn’t want to kiss also, so that if the relationship doesn’t workout, at least I didn’t touch another’s property, n we’ll be able to tell our kids look your mum and I never kissed or did anything till we got married, i’m just wondering if we’ll be okay with our children kissing ther bf or gf

  19. I think basically all has been said….simple fact and truth: your body can wait! Don’t injure yourself spiritually because of your fleshly lust. Just wait till the “programmed” time for anything sexual. It’s not the Nigerian mentality….it’s the child of the King’s mentality. By the way, someone said something about listening to the Spirit even with kissing. That should be redefined…because in that position, Christians (even ghen ghen spiritual people…lol) REFUSE to hear and yield to the gentle tug of the Spirit. And trust me, the tug is always flee!

    1. i love u for this IDY…we get to spiritually sentimental in this part of the world..God will sha not fly down and hold ur lips or body!!..

  20. […] you were part of the discussion about how physically intimate dating partners should be (READ HERE)? More of it will be coming up over the weekend, stay logged on here, don’t ever close the […]

  21. It all buoys down to ur opinion and personal conviction…the reason for being in a relationship matters a lot.Is it a defined union or just a casual fling for the casual reasons…Some people are able to hold it togeda no matter how head over heels they seem to be.For some, their environment dictates their deeds nd even relatnshp…u hear things like “He pushed me to it” or “i was under pressure”…1st have a mind of ur own (both of u —cos it takes 2 to tango)..Set ur priorities…wat do u both want out of this relatnshp..when shld wat happen..have these talks too..it help.PERSONALLY, if u aren’t ready for a relatnshp…dnt jump into one…if u really love each other,u’ll wait..*it’s hard sha bt u’ll wait*…i also don’t really blive if u are in a relatnshp u won’t ‘want’the person…just pray nd try to stay safe.

  22. To me a dry relationship is one that is so boring that all they have to do is kiss and have sex to make it fun. But it’s not Godly to do any outside the bounds of marriage. Hugs are permitted though.

  23. get ur first kiss on the altar end of story. Jacob waited for 14 years 4 1 woman am sure he neva kissed her once. No be human being be dat?

    1. @jessica yes oh na human being loool

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  25. […] DISCUSSION: HOW PHYSICALLY INTIMATE SHOULD DATING PARTNERS BE […]

  26. I will like to agree with some of the comments I’ve seen here. Any activity that leads towards sex should be avoided. To the brethren that think the Holy Spirit will convince you to be immoral, be sure you’re not responding to your already developed urges. Jesus told us that any man that looks at a sister in lust has already committed the act in His heart. The Lord has given us dominion over our flesh and our thoughts. We have let the world system influence these things. Romans 12:1-2 the Lord was trying to keep us from falling prey to the norm and system of the world. If you love your partner, you’ll not want them to sin against God and likewise yourself. Let’s ask God to shed His love abroad our hearts again. This misunderstanding can be narrowed down to adopting a different identity from who you are in Christ. Let’s look at Joseph and Mary, immediately he heard that she was pregnant, he wanted to put her away privately because he was sure that they couldn’t have gotten involved in immoral acts that could have led to such an outcome. I’m sure they were chaste and maintained they boundaries, prayerfully waiting for the day of the marriage before God and the people. My beloved brethren, let’s be careful about what we say concerning the Holy Spirit, He’s Holy and there’s no sin or unrighteousness in Him. Let me conclude with this; if kissing, fondling, Oral sex and the likes are acceptable before God, then we should be comfortable bringing these works to the light I.e. to the knowledge of both parties parents and definitely the pastor and the church and let’s see if God get the glory for these acts. Thank you.

  27. Relationship can fail any fucking(permit me) time. Do you keep giving sex,kisses and all other intimate acts in every relationship you find yourself? why don’t you reserve everything for that special person after walking down the aisle together? I used to believe kissing is allowed and kissed my onetime girlfriend cos I had the believe she would be my wife

  28. […] DISCUSSION: HOW PHYSICALLY INTIMATE SHOULD DATING PARTNERS BE […]

  29. First of aLL,What’s the essence of a relationship? Many don’t even know and they give all sorts of reasons because they think they are right. In your youth,your focus should be Jesus. God wants you to have a spouse so engaging in anything that had to do with your body is not only a sin but a distraction.

  30. […] DISCUSSION: HOW PHYSICALLY INTIMATE SHOULD DATING PARTNERS BE […]

  31. […] DISCUSSION: HOW PHYSICALLY INVOLVED SHOULD DATING PARTNERS BE? […]

  32. What is more important to you..your virginity or your purity..not having sex until marriage is possible but what do u do to sustain urself and get pleasures from, remember God is more interested in your heart..so do you kiss touch every part of each others body, finger yourself and later pride yourselves into believing that you are keeping yourself for marriage..stop fooling you self please..even the bible said just the imagination of the being in bed with someone is lust already…guide your hearts..virginity is biological but purity is spiritual. May God help us.

  33. I’m really so glad I read this post. Don’t know why it took me so long to get to this. Used to be a little confused about how physical a Christian is permitted to go, but now I’m a lot enlightened.
    …What is more important to you..your virginity or your purity..not having sex until marriage is possible but what do u do to sustain urself and get pleasures from, remember God is more interested in your heart..
    …virginity is biological but purity is spiritual. May God help us…. Thanks lordna. And God bless yo Tee. Some hilarious comments here too 😀

  34. […] DISCUSSION: HOW PHYSICALLY INVOLVED SHOULD DATING PARTNERS BE? […]

    1. Well…this may be coming four or five years later but I might as well talk my own. Trust me, there are no gray areas with the flesh, if you give it an inch, it will take the ruler (and you won’t get it back). I see no reason why you would want to put yourself under an atmosphere of procreation when you are trying to keep yourself for marriage. Let’s be real…kissing is different from pecking. A kiss on the cheek is fine but there is something about when salivas clash. Hormones get activated and arousal begins. I know how the intoxicating feeling I got the first time I kissed someone deeply (it was a lady ooo…before someone thinks I am homo) and it just creates a craving for more. Except you are not human, don’t kiss before you marry because I will certainly guarantee, that you will eventually smooch, or have oral or penetrative sex…10 times out of 10 (if you are alone which is usually the case). Limit it to BRIEF hugs or holding hands and even that could create Sparks if done for too long especially if the love language of one or two of you could be physical touch! Don’t boil water if you don’t plan to drink tea! Kissing is setting the table for sex. Destroy that table! And just to add more. Never be alone for too long especially if you live alone. It is even better you meet at a public place. I am telling you that this flesh can’t be trusted at all! May God give us grace to be faithful in the boundaries we set. Shalom

  35. […] DISCUSSION: HOW PHYSICALLY INTIMATE SHOULD DATING PARTNERS BE […]

  36. […] DISCUSSION: HOW PHYSICALLY INVOLVED SHOULD DATING PARTNERS BE? […]

  37. Well I’m still a strong believer in keeping ones virginity till marriage and trying to get married to a virgin, because as uncommon as it sounds, virginity applies to both men and women. It’s funny how people just get married based on “chemistry” or love or the physical attributes of their partners or even the most absurd bases: “he is good in bed”, “he has loads of cash”, “she is a freak in the room”, “she knows how to cook and clean”, and all other funny reasons to form a union. People hardly ask one of the most important questions: “have you had sex before?” but then they expect their spouses to just automatically be faithful forever. For me that’s ludicrous because you can’t expect a guy or a lady who has had a few (or numerous) body counts before they met you to all of a sudden stick with just you too death do y’all part, habits don’t just go away like that.

    So to answer the main question, I myself am not holier than thou so I won’t say you must abstain completely from sensual moments (body no be fire wood) but the body also isn’t a sex doll. I have kissed girls and been a little erotic but one thing I haven’t done is have sex, because of all sins, sex is a sin against your body, which is the temple of God. I think you can kiss and be a little erotic (if you can’t be completely abstinent) but you and your partner should agree to stay celibate till marriage. Stay blessed and hold on to your V-Card, it’s a good thing, pretty rare these days.

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